Our good friends at SALTY SOUTHEAST CRUISERS’ NET SPONSOR Key Lime Sailing Club wish everyone a hearty, Happy New Year with these very special offers and Florida Keys news linked below:
http://app.streamsend.com/private/L7ZO/1oe/Q2yJYID/browse/17715227
Several years ago, because of severe shoaling in the entrance channel to Little Crawl Key anchorage, Salty Southeast Cruisers’ Net removed this body of water from our directory of Florida Keys anchorages. With this good report from veteran cruiser, Chuck Baier, we probably need to relist the location.
We just spent a couple of great days anchored at Little Crawl Key, just east of Marathon. What a pleasant and peaceful anchorage, and we enjoyed the use of Curry Hammock State Park. We had no problems getting in. The channel is well marked. There could be issues with extreme low tides for a vessel with over 4 foot draft, but at high tide even 6 feet can get in. We recommend it best for 5 feet or less. The channel markers have been relocated at some point and are not in the charted position.
Chuck Baier
Click Here To Open A Chart View Window, Zoomed To the Location of Little Crawl Key Anchorage
WOW, looks like a very FUN time was had by all!!!! Check out these videos, particularly the first one linked below!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h461SmaLWQ_
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQekqLaJbx0
Just west of the Florida Key’s Inside Route’s intersection with Channel Five, one of the most important transition routes from Hawk Channel to the Inside Route (or the other way around), cruisers’ can visit the Fiesta Key – KOA Campground Marina. This is a small, quiet place, with a stone breakwater enclosed harbor. Don’t look for major restocking facilities around here, but otherwise, it is a good place to hang out for a few days.
The original post on this marina is no longer entirely accurate. Charmaine is closer to the mark. I am here right now and I love the place, in fact I am applying for the harbormaster position. First, the positive aspects’¦the property itself is very nice and well maintained. They just got about a dozen brand new `cottages’ in various pastel colors which are actually small cubeular trailers. The primary use of the property is RV and tent camping sites. There are now 2 small stores which for lack of a better description carry most anything you would want in an RV park. They also carry frozen bait and have live shrimp at the store located in front of the docks as there are many people who launch runabouts for day fishing here. There is also a large fish cleaning station.
The staff is indeed very hospitable and the restaurant is pretty good. Shawn seems to be the main chef while awaiting Alice to get back to 100% after knee surgery. The restrooms and showers are always clean, which is kind of odd since I never actually see anyone cleaning them:) There is a large SHELL sign at the docks which would lead you to believe there is fuel, but such is not the case, they have even removed the pumps since I was last here.
Ok, not to be negative, but by way of information, every place has certain drawbacks. In the case of Fiesta Key, which is probably my favorite place to hang out in the keys, at the top of the list has got to be price. The original description for this marina states $1.50 per foot per night. May I say both `no’ and `way’. Allow me to elaborate. That may have been true back in 2008 at the time of that post and when KOA owned the property, but about a year ago, give or take, some company called Morgan Properties (I think that’s it) bought the place. I do not know anything about the company but they obviously do not specialize in marinas or resort campgrounds. That would not be a bad thing if they would allow the onsite manager to make the decisions, but apparently they can’t even take a leak without consulting with New York first. Now, back to pricing’¦Sally and I live aboard the 38 foot steel hull Benford Tug `Knee Deep’. This summer when I was here, the previous manager, well, kicked us out stating that `corporate’ had decreed that they would no longer allow live aboards on the property, which is somewhat amusing since the main difference between an RV and a boat is that one of them floats:) At any rate, during that trip they could never decide what to charge us, all of the rates being exhorbitant. One day it would be $85, the next $65, the next $75, then back to $85, etc. It was almost as if the office had a dartboard that they threw a dart into every morning to decide the rate. This time, with a new manager (nice guy by the way), my rate has been $61 per night. BTW, the new manager is going to call NY tomorrow to see if there is a rule about live aboards. Still, if you think about it, as nice as it is, this is a campground and $61 a night comes to over $1800 a month which makes staying for an extended period of time cost prohibitive for most of us. Other than the fact that the bean counters in NY are trying to micromanage and pricing themselves out of the market, I can’t actually think of another downside. The pricing is the key, anyone who knows about the Keys knows that Nov. 1 begins the `high’ season. Right this minute (Nov.4) I would estimate that the property is at about 15-20% capacity, and that is on the weekend!
One last thing, if you want to come here, which I reccommend, don’t try it with more than about a 4 foot draft. Come strait in, DO NOT try to cut the corners. For about a 1/4 mile out on either side the water is about 3 ft and sometimes less. I have actually run my dingy aground, and it is not sand, it is rocky.
This place is well worth it, I highly reccommend this marina. I will let you know what I find out about liveaboards:)
Knee Deep Somewhere,
John and Sally
M/V Knee Deep
UPDATE!!!! Ok, the new manager called corporate and apparently they will allow live aboards (although they do not have a POUT station. Also, ref fuel, they have installed a 2500 gal tank (gas only) above the docks, it is on the other side of the road and is not functional yet.
Most importantly, I finally ran down pricing. You sort of have to point it out, repeatedly, but apparently you can stay here for $12 per foot if you stay for a month. For my boat, that comes to around $450 plus a $100 electric and water fee. For this time of year and with the amenities this properties offers, I think that is reasonable. At any rate, it beats the crap out of $1800 a month:) Hope to see you soon,
Knee Deep Somewhere
John and Sally
M/V Knee Deep
Click Here To Open A Chart View Window, Zoomed To the Location of Fiesta Key/KOA Marina
In an earlier, now corrected, story here on the Cruisers’ Net (see /?p=96458), we opined that under the new, now approved Monroe County Anchoring plan (part of the Florida Keys’s participation in the Florida Pilot Mooring Field program) anchoring around Key West’s Christmas Tree Island (charted as “Wisteria Island”) and on the waters west of Fleming Key was prohibited. That is the way we and others read these regulations.
However, just a few days ago, we received the following inquiry from Captain RMW:
I think your statement that anchorages won’t be allowed around Christmas tree Island and Fleming Key is incorrect and you need to modify it. It frightened me before I did more research on my own. I think these are considered `unmanaged mooring fields’ by the gov’t. Without those anchorages, there would be NO place for cruisers to anchor while visiting Key West. However, there is no `managed mooring field’ west of Fleming Key, so I assume there is no exclusionary `buffer zone’ there, which only applies to `managed mooring fields’. The only `managed mooring field’ in Key West is at Garrison Bight in the Seaplane basin, on the east side of Fleming Key. The way I read the rules would apply to Key West, is that the `buffer zone’ would apply to the Seaplane basin, around the mooring field at Garrison Bight. That would make more sense, the water is shallow, and in the places where it is not, has poor purchase for anchors. Your article is suggesting that all of the anchorages around Key West would be eliminated. There seems to be no such plan in the works, as far as I can tell. Please clarify.
RMW
Well, that really sounded hopeful. We are GLAD to acknowledge mistaken interpretations, particularly when the correct take is beneficial to the cruising community. So, we got in touch with Captain Charmaine Smith Ladd, our very special Florida Keys correspondent, and the founder of BARR (Boaters’ Anchoring Rights and Responsibilities, and asked her to look further into this matter. Here is her response:
The guy is correct in his statement that anchoring will be allowed off Wisteria (Christmas Tree Island) and Fleming Key. You may be thinking about the prior plans to put moorings off Wisteria, and making the entire west side of Fleming Key a sanctuary area for marine life–thus barring anchoring. That whole proposal got scrapped when the ownership of Christmas Tree Island became questionable. It appears the US Navy owns it.
Thought for a minute about what the problem was as far as confusion with KW and anchorages. The entire area basically comes under the “managed anchoring” zone category which means you can anchor there but are subject to the rules and regs as established by the Pilot Program. No time limits or anything just pumping out and commonsense stuff. The only place that is different is on the east side of Fleming Key where the mooring field is…that is now a NO ANCHORAGE buffer zone. It’s a small area and very open to rough water. Most cruisers do not use it.
Charmaine
And, more input from Captain RMW:
I just called the FWC yesterday and the man I spoke with there (I was connected to someone with knowledge on the topic of mooring) confirmed what I wrote to you previously. The areas west of Fleming Key are considered “managed anchorages” and will be checked for compliance with the regulations as such. That does not mean that you can’t anchor there. The man acknowledged that people live on board boats in Key West, and for many, he said, it’s “affordable housing”. The area in the seaplane basin (east of Fleming) around the city mooring field is the “buffer zone” around the “managed mooring field”, and that is where anchorages are not allowed.
As far as Key West is concerned, I don’t see any problem with these rules – they are just putting teeth into rules that were always there.
I think it’s a good thing – who wants sewage and derelict projectiles around their bedroom? Also I think there are allowances for composting toilets, etc.
One more thing, when I asked him if additional funds were allocated for enforcement, he said there are no additional personnel.
R.M. Walter
So, it would appear that even under the new Monroe County anchoring plan, anchoring will be allowed around Christmas Tree/Wisteria Island and east of Fleming Key. HAPPY DAYS! We were never so happy to be proved wrong!
Click Here To Open A Chart View Window, Zoomed To the Location of Key West’s Anchorages
Angelfish Creek - Click for Chartview
I don’t think any channel in the Florida Keys has occasioned more comment here on the Cruisers’ Net than Angelfish Creek. For those who don’t already know, this creek provides a means to cruise from the Inside/Florida Bay Route (from Card Sound), to Hawk Channel and the briny blue. There has always been some question about depths along this route, and we have received many reports here on the Net about an underwater “rock,” near the point where the marked passage meets up with the deeper waters abutting Hawk Channel.
Most of Captain Copeland’s comments below concern another subject, namely, why planing hull craft tend to transit Angelfish at high speed. Boy, if the props on my vessel cost $40K each, I might do the same thing, and then again, I might not!
In re: to Angelfish Creek navigation: As a captain of a 50′ sport fish who navigates this creek frequently (not because I have a choice’¦I do not) with my 4’10’³ draft, I have seen many posts from other boaters who seem very frustrated with `big sportfishers’ who take this channel pushing high wakes or at high speeds.
I would like to explain WHY this is the case:
1. I will never take this channel under two hours before or after a low tide ‘“ particularly in a west wind or a full moon.
2. The $2M boat has wheels which costs almost $40,000.
3. The shallowest parts of the channel is at the eastern end (a rock ledge, yes’¦rock) and western (bayside) end (which is shoaljng). For us to get up on plane enough to make this passage, it is necessary for the large sport boats to go fast! There are only a few places in the creek itself where we can slow down in enough time to get up on plane again to get out.
4. Believe it or not big sport boat wakes are less annoying when they are up on plane and not chugging.
Please try and understand these boats also have the right to navigate this channel. And believe me, if we had a choice, we wouldn’t!
J. Copeland
As Capt. Copeland stated it is necessary for large sport boats to stay on top to transit this stretch of water… I to captain a 50+ foot sport fish and have a draft of 5′-3″ and always run through at 25 plus KTS. I sometimes will have to wait for the East channel to be clear before shooting though and every once and a while there is someone in a center console that just doesn’t get it and we will meet in the worse possible spot… I cannot stop as it would result in disaster, so please pay attention to the larger boats up on top transiting Anglefish creek, we’re not trying to show off, only trying to get through!
Sunset Cove - Click for Chartview
Sunset Cove is one of the most popular anchorages in the northern Florida Keys. This haven is located on the waters of southeastern Buttonwood Sound, in charted Sunset Cove, near statute Mile 1143 off the Florida Keys Inside Route.
We consider the report below by Captain Nelson to reflect a very unfortunate situation. It appears as if the local government is doing its best to try and make dinghy access from the Sunset Cove anchorage as difficult as possible. Not exactly a welcoming attitude for the cruising community.
Then, turning the coin to the other side, Captain Bill’s remarks about those aboard what I call, the “live aboard hulks,” points out the very real problem in Florida involving this type of “vessel” and derelicts (abandoned vessels). By the way, please remember, I define “live aboard hulks” as boats that people are living on, that will probably never move again, except possibly downward to the bottom.
There is a new 6′ fence across the county access so you can’t come ashore unless you go to the hotel or Bayside.
My last time there will be my last time ever. Seems that some drugged out vagrants live on a few derelict sailboats. One sang and yelled for hours and hours keeping us all up until 3 am. Wish I had my red rider in these situations.
For now this place is cruiser unfriendly and vagrant friendly.
Bill Nelson
I can understand the problems that Florida is having with its drugged out and substance dependent types ‘“ they’re no different than elsewhere.
The problem is that Florida has not figured out that you and I and other snowbird cruisers are NOT the problem.
Until they do, I’m simply either staying out of Florida, or spending as little time and money as possible there. This trip, I’ll tank up in Georgia, and fill my diesel jerry jugs before crossing the border. If they want to treat us this way, we can retaliate with our wallets.
Wally Moran
ASSUMING THERE ARE REGULATIONS BY FISH & WILDLIFE AND/OR COAST GUARD GOVERNING: THE LENGTH OF STAY, NOISE AND WHATEVER ELSE, WHY DON’T THESE REGULATORY BODIES SIMPLY ENFORCE THEM THEIR REGULATIONS AND NOT BE HOSTILE TO THESE VISITORS TO OUR FABULOUS FLORIDA KEYS??
Bill Anderson
Click Here To View the Florida Keys Cruisers’ Net Anchorage Directory Listing For Sunset Cove
Click Here To Open A Chart View Window, Zoomed To the Location of Sunset Cove Anchorage
Crazy Eric…he still does that! Harmless young guy with mental health issues. Third gen keys commercial fisherman. He is clean and would give you the shirt off his back(also clean).
A couple of years ago, we published complete instructions here on the Salty Southeast Cruisers’ Net about what a Florida Sojourner’s Permit is, and why it was/is so important. Well, it’s time to refresh that information here as the fall, 2012 transient season gets underway.
First, here is the message, which originally appeared on the American Great Loop Cruisers’ Association forum which prompted us to get off our duffs and bring this issue anew to the attention of the cruising community.
If you plan on staying in Florida over 90 days, you need to consider getting a Sojourners permit. Most Florida tax collectors are not familiar with the program and when you go for yours, take along all the forms your will need. Permit is good for 11 months, cost us less than $125. Florida, as do all other states, limits the time you can spend there without registering your boat in their state.
Go to http://www.paradiseyachtsales.net/CruisingCenter2.html for more information.
You should also refer to yourself as long-term cruiser, not live-aboard.
Ron Matuska
Dunedin, FL
Now, why is it important to get a Sojourner’s Permit if you plan to have your vessel in Floridian waters longer than 90 days. There are at least two reasons, and one is referred to in Captain Ron’s message above.
1. If your vessel is registered in another state besides Florida, you can operate in Floridian water for up to 90 days without a problem. HOWEVER, if your vessel is Federally Documented, and NOT ALSO state registered, you MUST register it with the state of Florida, or you may be ticketed immediately upon entering Floridian waters. Or, put another way, Federally Documented vessels MUST ALSO be state registered (either with Florida or another state), or you face the possibility of a ticket.
By the way, it’s this onerous feature of Florida state law that used to allow the “Venice Water Nazi” to ticket boats coming and going in the city of Venice.
If your vessel remains in Florida for longer than 90 days, even if it’s registered in another state, YOU MUST ALSO REGISTER IT IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA UNLESS YOU OBTAIN A SOJOURNER’S PERMIT! Conversely, iF you succeed in getting a Sojourner’s Permit in hand you will not have to fork over for a costly FL state registration (again, see below) for stays up to 11 months.
My, my wasn’t that fun!
2. With a Sojourner’s Permit, you will NOT be hassled to pay sales tax on your vessel. I know this sounds crazy, but if your boat has been owned out of state for less a year before being brought into Florida, and the state in which you purchased your vessel does not collect sales tax on purchases of pleasure boats, the Sunshine State will actually try to charge sales tax on your vessel’s purchase price, if you stay in Floridian waters longer than 90 days (without a Sojourner’s Permit). So, to avoid this ridiculous and expensive charge, get a Sojourner’s Permit. Again, crazy, I know!
OK, so the above is why obtaining a Sojourner’s Permit is a really good idea. How does not obtain such a document?
We are pleased to report that our good friend, Captain Mike Dickens at Paradise Yacht Sales and Service (Fernandina Beach, FL, http://www.paradiseyachtsales.net/CruisingCenter2.html) provides what cruisers need to obtain one of these permits on his web site. Follow the links below.
Sojourner’s Permit Form – http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/forms/BTR/87244.pdf
Sojourner’s Permit Instructions – http://www.paradiseyachtsales.net/Sojourner1.pdf
Hopefully, along with a little cash, that’s all you will need to cruise tax free in the Sunshine State for up to 11 months. Of course, if any member of the cruising community has found out DIFFERENTLY, WE NEED TO HEAR FROM YOU! Please send all your comments and accounts of your experiences directly to:
Good luck and good cruising to all!
Have question concerning this. Our boat is documented only as our state does not require a registration if doucumented. So this information says to aquire the Sojourner permit you need a copy of registration. What do we need to do for this? Thanks for any help on this.
Susan Dawson S/V Colleen Mae
In my original post I noted our Fl permit was good for 11 months. I am not sure if the period was related to when we purchased, Jan 2012, good until Dec 2012, or to some other criteria. You get the permits at a DMV / Tax collector office and in Florida, vehicle registrations end the month of your birthdate, and my birthmonth is December. Also, at the time we purchased the permit we were Illinois residents, our boat was registered in Delaware, and is USCG documented. We stayed in Florida from about Dec 1, 2011 until June 1, 2012. After cruising the east coast this summer, we left our boat in NJ for winter storage when we will continue north again.
Ron Matuska
And, here’s some valuable input from fellow nautical author, Captain John Kettlewell:
Looking around at different county websites it is pretty clear that most say your boat must be state registered to get the Sojourner permit. Some states, like Massachusetts where I keep my boat, do not require state registration of documented vessels, so there is no real savings in hassle for me. I would have to first get a state registration before heading to Florida. In fact, I don’t believe Florida has any grace period for documented vessels–your boat has to be state registered somewhere to operate on Florida waters.
From Manatee County here: http://www.taxcollector.com/contactapp/question_detail.cfm?question=498&category=3
Yes, the State of Florida recognizes valid registration certificates and numbers from another state issued to visiting boaters for a period of 90-days on recreational boats only. You can operate your out-of-state registered boat on Florida waterways without obtaining a Florida registration/decal.
However, if you reside in Florida for more than 90-days, you must either title and register your boat in Florida or purchase a Sojourner registration (if you plan on taking the boat back to your home state).
To obtain a Sojourner registration, you must:
1. Provide a copy of the out-of-state registration showing the boat details, out of state # and owner names.
2. Complete Form 87244 Application for Non-Titled Boat
However, the sales tax thing is also clear. Many of us will not owe sales or use tax even if we have to register in Florida, unless we bought the boat within the last six months and/or we are Florida residents:
http://dor.myflorida.com/dor/forms/2009/gt800005.pdf
Under most conditions, use tax and surtax are due on boats brought into Florida within 6 months from the date of purchase. However, use tax may be due upon importation into Florida, under either of the following conditions:
‘¢ The boat belongs to a Florida resident; or
‘¢ The boat belongs to a corporation for the use of a corporate officer or director who is a Florida resident or who owns, controls, or manages a dwelling in Florida.
John J. Kettlewell
By the way, for some of us with older boats (30 years or more) Florida has an antique boat registration that is very cheap. I believe you are exempted from most of the annual registration fee. More information here: http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/forms/BTR/87243.pdf
JJK
I’m reading and rereading the words and am thoroughly confused. We live in NC, purchased our boat in NC, paid the sales tax on our boat to NC, and annually pay property tax on our boat. Our boat is a USCG documented vessel ‘“ NC does not require state registration on USCG documented vessels. We plan to visit FL this season but for less than 90 days. Do we need a Sojourner’s Permit? I’m still not sure about the answer to this question.
BMasinton
Claiborne answers:
OK, I have an answer for that one. Since you will be in Florida for less than 90 days, you do NOT need a Sojourners Permit.
HOWEVER, your troubles are not over. FLORIDA REQUIRES STATE REGISTRATION EVEN THOUGH YOUR BOAT IS FEDERALLY DOCUMENTED. You have three bad choices.
1. You can not state register your vessel, and hope you don’t get stopped in Florida, knowing that if you are, you WILL be ticketed!
2. You can register your boat with the state of Florida, which, I’m told, is an expensive proposition
3. You can register your boat in NC, even though our state does not require state registration for Federally documented vessels. Florida WILL accept NC (or any other state) registration, BUT you must have your state registration papers aboard, and put the appropriate sticker on your boat’s bow.
As I said, no really good alternative, but, for my money, I would pick #3.
Don’t shoot the messenger. That’s my take on your situation!
After receiving the first message below, there was some question whether the state of North Carolina would state register a Federally Documented vessel. Turns out “titling” and “registering” are two very different creatures, at least in the Tar Heel state, and, as you will read below, it IS possible to “register” a documented boat in NC.
Hi again
I checked the NC Web site for vessel registration (which I use for our dinghy registration) and it’s curious to note that the lead questions on the VL-1 form are this:
1) Is this vessel documented by the US Coast Guard Yes or No (If Yes, vessel cannot be titled)
2) Is this vessel 14′ or longer, or a personal watercraft Yes or No (If Yes, vessel must be titled)
Registration must be a different process than titling Hmmm
My answer to both of these questions is Yes guess I’ll give them a call on Monday
BMasinton
Hi Claiborne ‘¦
Here’s what we just learned from NC Wildlife Resources Commission – both on their Web site (http://www.ncwildlife.org/Boating.aspx) and by phone (1-800-628-3773). They will also take questions via email at
vessels@ncwildlife.org.
Actually the woman we spoke with chuckled and puzzled over why in the world we’d want to register our boat with NC if it’s already a USCG documented vessel! She did say that we couldn’t title the vessel – but if we wanted to pay $15 for 1 year (or $40 for 3 years), we needed to complete form VL1 (see link below), submit a copy of our USCG documentation paperwork, and they would get us registered.
Here’s the link to the NC form VL1:
http://www.ncwildlife.org/Portals/0/Boating/documents/VL1Form.pdf
So hopefully once that is done and we receive our registration number for NC, if we carry that paperwork and display our NC number on the bow of our boat, we won’t be pestered or ticketed by FL authorities – if we stay less than 90 days.
By the way, we always carry our tax information on board.
Is that your understanding, given this information?
Thanks again for providing us your info – hopefully our follow-up will help others.
Barb & Roy Masinton
s/v Waterdog
Oriental
One suggestion to Captains Barb and Roy – see Captain Ted’s remarks below. Looks like it’s NOT a good idea to paint your NC registration numbers on your bow IF and only if your vessel is Federally documented!
After reading some of this discussion last week I registered my documented vessel with North Carolina, we live in NewBern, for three years for a total of $60.00.
We are heading to the Bahamas on the 15th but will bepassing through Flordia (very quickly).
Newton Collyar
S/V Bifrost
Claiborne,
You suggested putting registration numbers on a documented boat. That is against USCG documentation rules. Putting the registration STICKER on is OK, but not the state registration number on the bow.
Second; some people get titling & registration mixed. If federally documented, that is your title. In that case, you CANNOT state TITLE, but you can state register a CG documented boat. The state will issue a reg number & sticker. You can use the reg number for paperwork but do not put it on the bow. The sticker should be sufficient for the water cops.
Ted
Yikes
We’ve just reviewed the further post from Captain Ted and this may have answered our question of latest concern.
We’re in the process of renewing our USCG certificate of documentation and there’s one paragraph on the form that states this:
`If the vessel has been lost, sold, abandoned, destroyed, or placed under state numbering [and isn’t that what we’re about to request by registering our boat in NC?], the vessel owner must notify the National Vessel Documentation center in writing. If the Certificate of Documentation is available, it must be surrendered.’
We did try to give the Documentation Center a call today (1-800-799-8362) to ask their advice, as we wish to retain our Certificate of Documentation ‘“ but they were closed for the holiday. We will call tomorrow. Meanwhile, we’ve not mailed a thing and won’t do so until we know for certain we are proceeding with our best interests in mind.
Barb & Roy Masinton
s/v Waterdog
And, a very important final message from Captains Barb and Roy. As you will see, it IS possible to register their vessel in North Carolina, thereby avoiding having to register it in Florida, and STILL RETAIN their Federal Documentaton!
Hi Claiborne and others!
Here’s the next (and maybe last) installment in the search for answers to our sojourner’s permit questions. After talking today (10/9/12) to a documentation officer from the National Vessel Documentation Center in West Virginia (1-800-799-8362), she gave me the following advice and guidance: Yes, we can obtain a NC vessel registration number and not be in conflict with our Certificate of Documentation from the Coast Guard, provided we 1) do not title our vessel with NC, 2) do not affix any registration numbers or stickers to our vessel, 3) continue to follow all the rules applicable to a documented vessel. If we follow these 3 guidelines, we do not have to surrender our Certificate of Documentation. If we carry our NC registration paperwork on board while cruising in FL waters (for less than 90 days) we can demonstrate to officials that we have been responsible in paying fees to NC, and FL fees are not required and potential ticketing in FL will no longer be an issue. We are comfortable with this advice and look forward to our cruise down south this season.
Thanks everyone for helping with answers and comments.
Barb Masinton and Captain Roy
s/v Waterdog
Regarding the 90 days’¦
is this 90 days per calender year?
Lets say I enter Fl Dec 1st and leave for the Bahamas Jan 30. That’s 2 months. When I come back do I have 1 month or 2 left in my 90 days? And when I come back in the fall?
How do they track your comings & goings? Do marinas like Fernandina Beach turn in reports to FWC? Bascule bridges?
How heavy is the burden of proof of your entry into the state?
Ted
I think this information is outdated. There is nothing in Florida state statutes about a “Sojourner” permit or registration. Indeed, the word “sojourner” does not appear anywhere in any state statute.
Some counties mention registration for sojourners, but this is simply a temporary registration that is available without transferring title of your vessel to Florida. As far as I can tell, the fees are exactly the same as for “normal” registration.
Of course, registration in Florida is pretty cheap. Probably less than the cost of taking a few friends out for a night on the town. If your boat is less than 40′ it’s about $120 per year. Up to 65′ in length, it is still less than $200.
For the last week or so, there has been a lively discussion on the American Great Loop Cruisers’ Association forum (http://www.greatloop.org) about the issue of liveaboards, particularly as this issue relates to facilities in Florida. All of us at the Salty Southeast Cruisers’ Net are aware of the importance of this issue to the cruising community, and will soon make available a comprehensive, professionally researched list of marinas where liveaboards are welcome. Until that happy event, listen to what our fellow mariners have to say by following the link below! This discussion is just too lengthy to post in its entirety here.
/florida-marina-liveaboard-discussion
No Name Harbor Anchorage is on the waters of the tadpole-shaped harbor, indenting the westerly banks of south Key Biscayne, near Cape Florida.
Awesome spot! Strong storm passed us in the middle of the night from the southeast. It wasn’t a problem here. Very protected.
Sara Wylie
Click Here To Open A Chart View Window, Zoomed To the Location of No Name Anchorage
All I can say to Captain Pickelmann’s remarks below, is “HEAR, HEAR!!!!” See you at the Lorelei with a cold glass of Mount Gay rum in hand!
The Keys win in my book. Islamorada – lunch at Lorelei, stop in at Worldwide Sportsman. Marathon – lunch at Keys Fisheries. Key West – snorkel trip on a sailing catamaran, Conch Train tour of the city. Eat at the Raw Bar or A&B Lobster house or at Bagatelle or at Blue Heaven or at the Pier House or at Hog’s Breath Saloon or…. Have a drink at Sloppy Joe’s. Have a drink at capt Tony’s. Sunset at Mallory Square followed by a world-class pub crawl along Duval St. (Don’t forget bail money.)
There is a very real danger that you might never leave. It’s happened before!
Regards,
Randy Pickelmann
Morning Star
As part of the discussion of new Florida Keys Anchorage regulations (see /?p=96458), we noted:
“3. In Marathon and Keys West, “no anchorage buffer zones” have been established around the city mooring fields.”
This factoid prompted the following, well considered question from Captain Peter TenHaagen:
Curious about the status of Sister Creek south of Boot Key Harbor as a legal anchorage spot?
Peter TenHaagen
That got us to thinking that we really should research the location and size of all the “no anchorage buffer zones” established by the new Florida Keys anchorage regulations. So, after some digging, below we have reproduced the wording from the actual ordinance:
So, to answer Captain TenHaagen’s question directly, it looks as if the waters of Sister Creek, are NOT included in the “No Anchor Buffer Zones,” as these are more than fifty feet from the Boot Key Harbor mooring fields.
And, finally, here is a very hard to read map, which, if you can see them, shows where the official mooring fields are located in Boot Key Harbor. This map does NOT show the “no anchorage buffer zones,” but clearly the waters of Sister Creek are more than 50 feet from the fields.
Notice, HOWEVER, the map does show that Sister Creek IS PART OF THE MANAGED ANCHORAGE AREA, so, conceivably, the creek’s waters could be further regulated in the future!
Not an expert on the area, but my recollection of Sister Creek is one of VERY limited swing room.
Bill Dixon
We anchor in Sister Creek Regularly to let the Boy Scouts on our Eco Adventure trips with Florida Seabase Kayak the amazing loop trail through Whiskey Creek. For a temporary anchorage it is fine, however you must be careful not to block the channel, there is a lot of boat traffic. There is also a strong tidal current.
Captain Harold Ochstein
As part of the discussion of new Florida Keys Anchorage regulations (see /?p=96458), I made the comment:
“. . . for many years now, all of the Florida Keys (Monroe County) waters have been a NO DISCHARGE ZONE. That means, among other things, that ALL vessels must regularly pump out their waste tanks, and Lectra San type devices are NOT acceptable. And, along with these long-time regulations, comes the possibility of legal boardings by any law enforcement agency to make sure that overboard discharge vales are PADLOCKED SHUT and all other MSD regulations are being observed!”
In response to these remarks, Captain John Cover chimed in with this well considered observation and question:
Claiborne:
In your comments you state law enforcement officials will be able to board vessels to insure overboard discharge valves are “padlocked shut”. I am not aware of a change in the Florida MSD regs that require “padlocking” as the only means of securing the valve. At last reading my impression is that the valve must be “secured”. I spoke to Lt. Dave Dupree (FWC Monroe County) a few years ago and he advised locking, wire ties, removal of the handle or similar solutions to prevent accidental discharge. Has there been a regulation change I am unaware of or is there one in the actual new proposed regulations?
Thanks,
John N. Cover,
s/v Shadow,
Hudson, Florida
My reply:
Captain John:
No, as far as I know there has not been a change in the “secured” requirements of overboard discharge valves. I used the term “padlocking” because my research has consistently shown that just chaining the overboard valves is NOT sufficient, and can result in ticketing. I suspect your research is also correct, in that wire ties and removal of the handle would also be considered “secured.” However, with that being said, what we have always done while cruising in the keys is chain and padlock our overboard discharge valves. This plan has passed multiple inspections over the years.
The US Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) lists several specifically acceptable means (not an exhaustive list if you read the language carefully) of securing an overboard discharge in a No Discharge Zone (NDZ) such as the Florida Keys. The applicable CFR can be found under:
Title 33: Navigation and Navigable Waters
PART 159’”MARINE SANITATION DEVICES
Subpart A’”General
Browse Previous
§ 159.7 Requirements for vessel operators.
You can find the complete CFR language online at: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov
`Secured’ also can be realized for those vessels with `key operated flushing to holding tanks’ if the key is removed from the system and stored safely away from the head.
Capt. Ken Wright
On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission approved the Monroe County anchorage regulations associated with the Florida Pilot Mooring Field Program. While the final version must still be approved by the Monroe County Board of Commissioners, that final nod would seem to be a mere formality. We conclude that, after all the many public forums, voluminous comments published here on the Cruisers’ Net and on other nautical forums, and a lot of GOOD work by our very special Florida Keys correspondent (and founder of BARR – Boaters’ Action Rights and Responsibilities), Captain Charmaine Smith Ladd, we have a new set of Florida Keys anchorage regulations which will almost certainly be in effect by the winter 2012 – 2013 cruising season! HOWEVER, as you will see, this is not nearly as onerous as it initially sounds!
Click Here To Learn MUCH MORE About the New Florida Keys Anchorage Regulations
Sunset Cove - Click for Chartview
Sunset Cove is one of the most popular anchorages in the northern Florid Keys. This haven is located on the waters of southeastern Buttonwood Sound, in charted Sunset Cove, near statute Mile 1143 off the Florida Keys Inside Route.
The excellent report below, written by Florida Keys Keynoter reporter Kevin Wadlow appeared on KeysNet.com and is reprinted here with his permission. KeysNet website is http://www.keysnet.com and is a good source of local perspective on all things in the Keys.
KEY LARGO
Boaters Oppose State Pilot for Sunset Cove
A managed anchoring area proposed for Key Largo’s Sunset Cove fails to meet requirements for a state pilot program, says a staff report to the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. Monroe County’s draft ordinance to create several new managed anchoring zones reaches the FWC board at its Sept. 5 meeting in Tampa.
FWC Division of Law Enforcement staff who reviewed the county plan endorsed it, “contingent upon the Sunset Cove Managed Anchorage Zone provision being removed.”
A pilot program for five Florida coastal areas was enacted in 2009 to “explore potential options for regulating the anchoring or mooring of non-liveaboard vessels outside the marked boundaries of public mooring fields.”
Sunset Cove lies about 50 miles from the nearest existing mooring field, FWC staff said.
“Staff understands the Sunset Cove provision was originally added to the ordinance due to the amount of public comment received from residents” in a June 2011 meeting,” the report says. “Unfortunately, Sunset Cove is 45 to 50 miles from the Marathon mooring field… These were the mooring fields identified as part of Monroe County’s original application package for the pilot program.”
“There is also strong opposition from the boater groups on this provision,” the report says.
The FWC board members must approve local ordinances created under the pilot program. The board can amend or overrule its staff recommendation.
Monroe County officials only recently received the FWC staff report, said local Marine Resources Administrator Rich Jones.
The Keys ordinance also designates managed anchoring zones in the Lower Keys at Boca Chica Basin, Cow Key Channel and Key West Harbor; and in Marathon’s Boot Key Harbor and Sister Creek.
“Monroe County did something unique” by requiring proof of monthly sewage pumpouts for boats in the managed zones, FWC staff noted. A photo used in the state report to illustrate septic problems shows a toilet seat positioned over an open hole in a boat’s deck, with ocean water visible below.
Monroe County rules also would bar boats from the managed areas if they “exhibit pre-derelict vessel conditions” such as being unable to navigate, or appear to be in imminent danger of sinking. Of 39 comments received by the FWC on the Monroe County anchoring law, 18 were logged as “negative” with 12 being “positive.”
Kevin Wadlow
Click Here To View the Florida Keys Cruisers’ Net Anchorage Directory Listing For Sunset Cove
Click Here To Open A Chart View Window, Zoomed To the Location of Sunset Cove Anchorage
Over the week of August 13-18, several posts appeared on the T&T (Trawlers and Trawlering) Mail List concerning the general cruising characteristics of the Florida Keys Inside route. Those messages are reproduced below. Incidentally, the entire SSECN staff highly recommends the T&T list if you own one of these roomy, fuel efficient vessels.
Just to add my 23 cents worth, I have always considered a 5-foot draft to be the cutoff for safe cruising of the Florida Keys inside route. On numerous occasions, I have sounded 5-feet directly between the markers in the Key Largo region, particularly where the main channel passes the marked entrance to Tavernier Creek.
If your vessel draws 5-feet or preferably less, don’t let these soundings discourage you. Some of the most wonderful anchorages, not to mention the views, you will ever enjoy lie off the FLK inside route!
Looking for info on the practicability of taking the inside route from Miami to Marathon.
I draw 5 feet. What is the opinion of the boaters that have done this route. Is it doable?
Thanks
Larry
Larry,
We’ve done the inside route and we draw 4’9″. Never had a problem, but then we watch the water, not a screen. It is marked adequately. Neither Jill or I can recall anyplace where another 3″ would have made a difference. There is a tide down there, though I doubt it is much more than 2 feet. If those 3″ might make a difference, plan to transient at high tide during a new or full moon, might want to consider spring tides too.
Rudy
Briney Bug- Panama City, Fl
Larry,
I have gone the inside route from Miami to Marathon a number of times, both in Pooh (draft 4’8″) and my previous sailboat with 5′ draft. Should be little problem. Not to say the water isn’t skinny; we often are reading
depths of 5.0 to 5.2 feet on parts of this route (shallowest is just north of Islamorada), but haven’t touched bottom.
Steamboat Pass, just south of Islamorada used to be a problem, but this has been dredged and is now good for around 6 feet (deep water ;-).
Mark Richter
Sorry Larry, but I disagree. I carry 5′ draft and have soft grounded in the center of the channel on two different trips on the inside route several years apart. I won’t try it a third time.
Paul
Time of year can make quite a difference. In the winter, northers will blow water out of Florida Bay. But don’t let that discourage you. It’s wonderful cruising!
Regards,
Randy Pickelmann
Morning Star
The trick is to wear polarized sun glasses, use you eyes.
The water is usually clear, and it looks scary shallow, it is, but with 5 ft u can make it.
The channels are well marked. The tide is about 6 inches in the upper keys,wind can effect water levels more than the tide.
Go for it!
See you in paradise!
Capt. Sterling
I don’t know where Mr. Kennedy traveled in the ICW on the inside, we have found the inner passage from Miami to Spanish Key to be a chalky green only rarely clear. We obey the day markers backed up by GPS. If your draft is 6-plus you are cruising for a bruising. If you need Sea Tow they are not allowed to move you until the environmental police arrive. The fines are prodigious..
We have made the trip back and forth seven times.at different times of the year. Mr. Kennedy obviously has had a different experience.
One thing is beyond dispute If you need Sea Tow you are in bad trouble
Peter Denton
Susie Q
42′ Draft 4′
Now that I know that Captain Sterling runs a tourist boat in the Keys, I must defer to his greater experience. I guess I was there at the wrong time. But it remains true that if you are passing over water that is 4,5or 6 feet it is impossible to tell the difference even if the water is crystal clear. Several of the passes are that shallow. Call me naive but I advise extreme caution. Remember you do not have advantage of some one who has local Knowledge.
Peter Denton
Susie Q
Mangrove Marina is currently one of only three marinas (the other being Plantation Key Yacht Harbor) which offers plentiful transient dockage along the Florida Keys inside route, from south of Jewfish Creek to Islamorada. There is also a full service repair yard here. If your vessel can stand some 4 1/2 foot MLW depths, what’s not to like!
Great new look at the marina great tiki hut happy hour bbq very helpful staff and great prices close to shops.
Roger Lougheed
Click Here To View the Cruisers’ Net’s Florida Keys Marina Directory Listing For Mangrove Marina
Click Here To Open A Chart View Window, Zoomed To the Location of Mangrove Marina
Sunset Cove - Click for Chartview
Sunset Cove Anchorage is located on the waters of southeastern Buttonwood Sound, in charted Sunset Cove, near statute Mile 1143 off the Florida Keys Inside Route. And, as Andree points out, Buttonwood Sound lies west of US #1 Highway Marker 99.
Buttonwood sound is at MM 99.
I was anchored there for a few years. The dinghy dock was right off Bay side resort but now year 2012 there has been a fence put across the path, part of the `dock’ was the resort’s property. You can still dinghy there , it is a small
space though off the dead end street. Snooks burned down since than and was rebuilt it is now reopened. It is a nice quiet anchorage, first row seat to fabulous sunsets and Snooks’ nice live band music.
Sunset Cove falls under the new anchoring regulations that are part of the Monroe County Pilot Program. The main one folks there will have to deal with is proof of pumpout. Save your receipts and keep a pumpout log.
John Kettlewell
Click Here To View the Florida Keys Cruisers’ Net Anchorage Directory Listing For Sunset Cove
Click Here To Open A Chart View Window, Zoomed To the Location of Sunset Cove Anchorage
Thursday Cove Anchorage - Click for Chartview
This neat little anchorage lies just off the Florida Keys Inside/ICW route, immediately north of Jewfish Creek. You don’t want to be caught here with fresh northerly winds, as we were one inky black night. You can’t take my word for it – it’s a really bad idea! HOWEVER, during southerlies, this is a GREAT spot that we really like!
I found here bad holding in mangrove mud mixed with leaves. Perhaps you can do better with a plow anchor.
Charles
Bottom is mostly turtle grass, which is difficult for most anchors to penetrate. I agree that this is NOT the place to be in any kind of a norther.
Julie Stocksdale
Nearby is Pumpkin Island that may be a better alternative.
Always FOR SAILtoo
Click Here To Open A Chart View Window, Zoomed To the Location of Thursday Cove Anchorage
Click Here To View the Cruisers’ Net’s Florida Key Anchorage Directory Listing For Pumpkin Key
Click Here To Open A Chart View Window, Zoomed To the Location of Pumpkin Key Anchorage
Mangrove Marina is currently one of only two marinas (the other being Plantation Key Yacht Harbor) which offers plentiful transient dockage along the Florida Keys inside route, from south of Jewfish Creek to Islamorada. There is also a full service repair yard here. If your vessel can stand some 4 1/2 foot MLW depths, what’s not to like!
My wife and I have lived here three years. It is a great Marina, close to shopping, hospital and other amenities.
Great staff and enjoyable people.
Jeff Hughes
Click Here To View the Cruisers’ Net’s Florida Keys Marina Directory Listing For Mangrove Marina
Click Here To Open A Chart View Window, Zoomed To the Location of Mangrove Marina
Click Here To Open A Chart View Window, Zoomed To A “Navigation Alert” Position at Angelfish Creek Eastern Entrance
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