On 4/30/13, as part of a South Carolina Wish List, we posed the following question:
Statute Mile 472 to 469 ‘“ has anyone had problems with the strong tidal currents barreling through the Elliott Cut ‘“ Wappoo Creek section of the AICW, between the Stono and Ashley Rivers? Did you have problems keeping off the morning and afternoon restricted bascule bridge which crosses these waters east of marker #7?
Responses follow:
We have been through Elliott Cut -Wapoo Creek Bridge many times. No problem with current, They have always been managable. I do put out a Security Call on Both VHF 13/16 for commercial traffic. Transited the cut on 4-19-13 on a flooding tide. Dropped the Antenna’s and took our 30 ft Air draft right under the bridge with no opening necessary any restrictiions is not a problem if you just check your cruising guide and plan your arrival accordingly. Capt Bob Kovach
We encountered a 2 1/2 kt current through the cut carrying us towards the bridge. We have a cat so it was not a problem, but a monohull might not have been so lucky. There was a significant current through the bridge which is offset to the eastern bank. John Pholeric
On 4/30/13, as part of a South Carolina Wish List, we posed the following question:
Statute Mile 465 ‘“ anyone found a berth at the Charleston Maritime Center, west of marker #36? Please describe your experience here. Did you find enough shelter from choppy water? Did you have any problems with the depths? Did you take the opportunity to walk to the nearby Harris Teeter supermarket? How about some dining recommendations for restaurants close to this facility?
Responses follow:
We’d tried more than once to get in. Last fall we were successful and secured two nights in November by calling a week in advance. Our experience there was positive. The staff was helpful. We didn’t find a problem with boat wakes, but we may be more tolerant than some. Harris Teeter was a short walk away and was a great place to provision. While I can’t name a particular restaurant, we’ve eaten at a few and found them to be really good. We enjoyed the short walk to the old marketplace and downtown. Our boat is a Beneteau 36CC sailboat with a 5.5 ft draft. Bob & Sandra Carpe Diem
Cheapest fuel south of Myrtle Beach with Boat/us discount Charleston Maritime Marina is best entered at slack tide. Does not have protection against strong northeast winds with subsequent surge! There are definite ship wake issues. Fish is four blocks away, and the Harris Teeter is expensive, but has anything you could ask for. The Aquarium is right there and worth a visit. Patriot Park is a water taxi ride away and a nice afternoon. The aircraft carrier was quite interesting. JackP
Stayed several nights at the center. We did have to plow a bit of mud at dead low tide with our 5’3″ draft to get to our slip. there is a shallow hump inside to the southeast. Once at our slip we had several feet at low tide. Walking to Harris Teeter is easy, a very well stocked market. We loved the easy access to the historical district. Biking or walking is great. Ed
Great Location, easy walk downtown, fuel prices are good. The facilities are a long walk from the docks. NO hiding the chop with winds out of the North or Northeast and then you add commercial traffic and can be kind of rough in there. Tract Hellman
The Charleston Maritime Center around the battery is greatly preferred; closer to downtown, easy walk to provisioning at Harris-Teeter, and more welcoming and appreciative of your business! Jim Peg and Jim Healy aboard Sanctuary
The Corp of Engineers of Charleston has rolled out a great website that allows you to see the latest hydrographic survey data in the Federal Channels in Charleston Harbor and the AIWW. It works great on an IPAD or other tablet.
1. Click on the Charleston or AIWW block. Use your mouse to drag the map around and scroll wheel to move in and out. The legend is in the upper left corner (Small squares with lines). 2. Remember in the legend generally Blue is good-Green-OK-Red Look Out. The depths are at MLLW. We will be adding the buoys and markers. 3. This is a small step and we will be putting a comments button on it for the public so we can improve the site. Link is: http://w3.sac.usace.army.mil/home/; Regards, David Warren Project Manager Civil Works USACE Charleston District
These three anchorages lie between the intersection of the Waterway and Ashley River and the Hwy 17 bascule bridge several hundred yards up the Ashley. As a longtime Charleston boater, Capt. Koerner is very familiar with these waters.
The northernmost anchorage, closest to the City Marina (and their dinghy dock) has the shallowest water during tidal range. Holding ground is pluff mud, but great for catamarans. Off the City Marina you will find deeper water, but strong currents, and it tends to get crowded during the seasons. If you go under the 56′ bridge, you will find it much less crowded, though a much further dinghy ride to the City Marina dinghy dock. The Harborage on the Ashley River (former Ashley Marina) does not offer service to cruisers at anchor. HB Koerner
The Harborage at Ashley Marina - Click for Chartview
The Harborage at Ashley Marina lies along the northeastern shores of Ashley River (on the Charleston peninsula), between the charted 56 foot fixed bridge, and the 18-foot Highway 17 bascule bridge. While we certainly have NO argument with either Captain Koerner’s or Captain Jay’s advice to be on the lookout for swiftly moving waters when approaching this facility’s piers, I might just add, “welcome to the South Carolina Low Country.” Strong tidal currents are part and parcel of almost every anchorage and marina from south of Myrtle Beach to St. Marys River.
I keep my sailboat at this marina. Last April she was T-boned by a trawler whose captain used hiS bow thrusters to turn the boat around during a strong ebb tide. Boat never made the turn. A powerboat struck another powerboat yesterday while trying to back in against the current (which seems to run 45 degrees to the shore, rather than parallel). And this morning, a transient sailboat was unable to back ouy against the current and was T-boned against the pier before striking another sailboat in his slip. THIS IS NOT A DANGEROUS PLACE ‘“ JUST RESPECT THE CURRENTS! COME IN ON SLACK WATER, BACK OUT WITH THE CURRENT!! HB Koerner
I second HB’s advice. I’ve stayed at Ashley’s a couple of times as a transient, and usually ask if I can stay on the outside dock so I don’t have to deal with navigating the interior slips with the current. Dennis Jay `Delta Blues’ Annapolis, Md.
The Harborage at Ashley Marina - Click for Chartview
The Harborage at Ashley Marina lies along the northeastern shores of Ashley River (on the Charleston peninsula), between the charted 56 foot fixed bridge, and the 18-foot Highway 17 bascule bridge.
The Harbourage is a great marina. All floating docks, good AC power and fresh water connections at all docks. No wake zone which seems to be pretty much obeyed! Fast tidal flow, so be prepared or come in at high/low water (they used to call this the Crashley marina). There is tons of depth (30’+ on transient dock). Friendly staff, fair bathroom facilities. They run a shuttle van into the tourist area of downtown, and also to West Marine. A fair restaurant about 200 yds away at City Marina (b’fast, lunch, dinner), and another across the river (100yd dinghy ride) with a dinghy dock. Sailboats beware of the of the Keith Rawlings
The following narrative is an excerpt from the blog of Chuck and Claria Gorgen. To see the full journey log go to: http://www.gorgensodyssee.blogspot.com. This is a trip undertaken by very few cruising size craft. Most captains choose to cease their upstream explorations at the “T” on upper Cooper River. HOWEVER, as you will see below, this cruise has its charms, and perhaps should be considered more often.
The Cooper River heads NW from the Charleston, SC harbor up to Monks Corner where it meets Lake Moultrie. Back in 1939, a WPA project dammed up the Cooper and Santee rivers to form two large lakes, Lake Moultrie and Lake Marion. This reservoir backed up the Santee River to the Congaree and Wateree Rivers, and created a water route from Columbia to Charleston. The Cooper River is deep enough to support barge traffic up to the hydro power plants that were build at the bottom end of both lakes. The Santee Cooper project was the largest WPA project undertaken. On Tuesday we started up the river at about 10:00. The cooper river was very deep all the way up to Lake Moultrie. 35 miles up the river we came to the first bridge we needed open. To request an opening you need to call the bridge 6 hours before you get there,and then call again as you get close, so the bridge operator can drive to the bridge you want opened, he operates two bridges about 10 miles apart.
Another 10 miles up the river we arrived at Monks Corners, where we spent the night tied up to the dock at Gilligan’s Restaurant, free night dockage with power if you have dinner, what a deal! Wednesday, we needed a second RR bridge opened just before the dam and lock at Lake Moultrie. The same bridge tender arrived to do the honors. As the bridge goes up we can see the 80 foot high dam and lock. We call the lock master and proceed to the lock door. These bridges and lock have no VHF radios so all communication is by cell phone. When this lock was built back in 1939 it was the highest single chamber lock in the world at 75′.
Once in the lock, we tied up to a floating dock that was secured to the locks bollards. YOUNG at HEART rafted up to us and we started up. the lock was very friendly with little turbulence as we went up.
Once to the top of the 75′ lift we can see Lake Moultrie off to the NW. Once on the lake there is a 6 mile buoyed straight channel to diversion channel which connects Lake Moultrie and Marion. Parts of Moultrie are 90′ deep, and when the lake was flooded they flooded over roads, bridges, and towns, all of that stuff still down there.
YOUNG at HEART lead the way out of the lock and across the lake, and enters diversion channel leading into Lake Marion. Lake Marion is not as deep as Moultrie, and they never cleaned all of the trees out before they flooded, so there are trees and stumps all over, it’s important to stay in the buoyed channel.
We spent the first night anchored behind the Santee National Wildlife Refuge at the North East corner of the lake. Thursday morning was overcast and drizzly. We continued up the lake with the intention to get to Santee State Park. About halfway up the lake we go under Interstate 95. At this point the lake was getting shallow except for the old Santee River bed, which winds all over between the trees that continue to stand. Here YOUNG at HEART follows us through the maze.
Friday we set out to see how far we could get up the Santee River and then up the Congaree River. As we approached the far west end of Lake Marion, the channel got narrow and shallow, with lots of growth crowding in on the channel. We found the deepest water on the outside of the river bends and we hugged the growth close.
We anchored in a nice cove behind Santee State Park.
Friday we set out to see how far we could get up the Santee River and then up the Congaree River. As we approached the far west end of Lake Marion, the channel got narrow and shallow, with lots of growth crowding in on the channel. We found the deepest water on the outside of the river bends and we hugged the growth close.
The water was very skinny, running between 6-8′. It look like we wouldn’t be able to get through, but the bottom was very soft mud and many had told us we could get quite a ways up the river, so we slowly continued. They were right, within a few miles the river became a typical river, with a downstream current of 1.5 to 2 MPH, with depths along the deep channel of 12-18′. We knew there were three bridges to get under, the first a RR bridge with a reported clearance of 18′. The water is down about 1.5′, and we found about 20′ clearance. A little further upstream the Santee River ends and the Wateree goes off to the north and the Congaree goes off to the west towards Columbia. We turned left up the Congaree and soon found the second bridge, highway 601, with a new span under construction.
About 3 miles further up the river we came to the third bridge, with an 18′ clearance per the chart. Well, this bridge was also under construction and a temporary span was across the river for the crawler cranes to use. One of the construction guys stretched his tap measure down to the water and announced the clearance was about 15′. We may have been able to get under, but YOUNG at HEART could not, so we decided we were as far as we were going.
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Comments from Cruisers (2)
Peter Groen- August 5, 2019 - 9:21 am
The post on traveling from Charleston Harbor up the Cooper River to Lake Moultrie and on to Lake Marion mistakenly keeps referring to Lake Monroe – its really Lake Marion in SC.
Hello, my name is Brent Nilsen and I am very interested in making this trip. Thanks for the post. It looks like you guys made this trip in a couple of days. Do you have any of the contact information on the bridges that you need to call or prices for using the lock system? Any advice helps.
The Ehlers have a good suggestion for all pet owners at this or any marina. Like most marinas today, Charleston Harbor Marina – A SALTY SOUTHEAST CRUISERS’ NET SPONSOR! – requires at all pets be leashed, but that rule is so often ignored.
We have stayed here a couple of weekends with our boat `Keeper of the Stars’ and we found it very nice and staff friendly. There are 2 things that we would like to mention, #1’¦We wish they had a general store on site instead of having to leave the property to buy soft drinks, cleaning supplies etc. #2 and most important to us’¦.I wish they would make people put their dogs on LEASHES at all times’¦.I have 2 small pugs that are on leashes and when ur big dog comes over and gets my dogs riled up’¦your dog better not cause me a problem, because I will protect them at all costs’¦so keep your dog on a leash!!!!! Jim and Tera Ehlers
If you hurry, you can still catch this river cruise that begins Tuesday, 10/02/2012. Capt. Corgen has titled the cruise “Up the Cooper to Lake Marion and beyond”. Sounds like a great trip!
Claiborne: I think John Winter, JUST RELAX, mentioned to you maybe 6 weeks ago or so that several AGLCA boats were going up the Cooper. Well that several are 2, YOUNG @ HEART and ODYSSEE. We are leaving from Maritime Center next Tuesday morning, October 2. ODYSSE will leave their home dock on Distant Island Creek in Beaufort Sunday afternoon and spend Monday night in Charleston, YOUNG @ HEART is a James Island boat and will be leaving from their dock on Parrot Point Creek at high tide Tuesday morning. Tuesday night will be spent at Gilligans dock in Monks Corner. Wednesday they will go through the 75′ single chamber lock at Pinopolis into Lake Moultrie. Trip is expected to turn around in the Congaree River above the Hwy. 601 bridge, adjacent to the east end of the Congaree National Park. We’ll be posting our odyssey as we can on our blog, http://www.gorgensodyssee.blogspot.com. Chuck Gorgen
Cooper River Marina is located in what was a backwater section of the old Charleston US Navy Base, and it’s quite a drive to get pretty much anywhere from its docks. Still, the rates are reasonable, and if you have readily available shoreside auto transportation, this facility is a possibility in the greater Charleston area! Captain Harvey gives us a bit of its history.
I have been familiar with the Cooper River Marina since it was new after Huricane Hugo wiped out the old US Navy sailing facility. It was originally built as a US Navy military marina. When the Base closed the Charleston County Parks took over. It is a very nice facility and the employees and manager Matt Driscole are the best. However the county parks has never recognized the military men and women who paid for the marina through non-appropriated funds through the use of commissarys and exchanges. Its just a hard spot with me, but I feel the County should honor the military with a military rate for long term dockage. After all the sailors and airmen paid for it. Manning J. Harvey III
Dolphin Cove Marina overlooks the Ashley River’s eastern shores north of unlighted daybeacon #16, northwest of the charted “R TR”. To reach this facility from the AICW’s run through lower Ashley River, your vessel must pass through/under the Ashley River Memorial/US 17 twin bridges. Dolphin Cove is sometimes overlooked by cruisers who opt for the Charleston City Marina or, on the Cooper River side of Charleston, the Charleston Martime Center or Charleston Harbor Marina. And, there is certainly nothing wrong with that plan of action. After all, both Charleston Harbor Marina and Charleston City Marina are CRUISERS NET SPONSORS! However, if you seek a quieter, lower energy setting to coil your lines, consider Dolphin Cove, farther upstream on Cooper River. To access the principal Charleston historic and business districts, you will need a rental car, or a taxi ride, but now Dolphin Cove offers an on-site dining option, as you will discover below. PLEASE give the HydeOut a try, and tell everyone the SSECN sent you!!!
Subject: We have a bigger dock! Restaurant now open! Cruising News: The HydeOut (843-745-0426) at Dolphin Cove Marina is now open for lunch and dinner 7 days a week! See our website at www.hydeout-charleston.com for more information. We have 22 dedicated boatslips for your use to enjoy your dining experience. Jennifer Carter
The shrimp sandwich is amazing! And you’ll love the fried green tomato sandwich if you like something lighter. Either way, the service is great, the food is fine and the setting is sublime. The whole family enjoyed it so much that we’ll be returning tonight (second time this week). Paula
Dolphin Cove Marina, A SALTY SOUTHEAST CRUISERS’ NET SPONSOR!, overlooks the Ashley River’s eastern shores north of unlighted daybeacon #16, northwest of the charted “R TR”. To reach this facility from the AICW’s run through lower Ashley River, your vessel must pass through/under the Ashley River Memorial/US 17 twin bridges. Local captains who regularly use these spans say that “14ft air draft” is worst case scenario at the highest spring tide. With a tidal range of almost 8ft, it’s possible to have 20ft+ at the center of the arched spans. NOTE that the twin spans in question open on demand except during morning and afternoon peak drive times.
re: `You need to clear a 14 ft air draft to get up river as they do not want to open the two Old Draw Bridges.’ [Earlier comment on accessing Dolphin Cove Marina]
Title 33: Navigation and Navigable Waters CHAPTER I: COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY SUBCHAPTER J: BRIDGES PART 117: DRAWBRIDGE OPERATION REGULATIONS Subpart B: Specific Requirements: South Carolina 117.915 ‘“ Ashley River. (a) The draws of the US17 highway bridges, miles 2.4 and 2.5 at Charleston, shall open on signal; except that, from 7 a.m. to 9 a.m. Monday through Friday and 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. daily, the draws need be opened only if at least 12 hours notice is given. The draws of either bridge shall open as soon as possible for the passage of vessels in an emergency involving danger to life or property. Ron Widman
Having spent the last five years as a “full-time cruiser” at Charleston City Marina, A SALTY SOUTHEAST CRUISERS’ NET SPONSOR, I am naturally biased in its favor. While the Charleston Maritime Center does have a great location, the current that Capt. Laudermilch mentions, as well as the wakes of passing boats, make the Maritime Center a poor choice for a long-term stay.
We spent the winter this year at the Charleston City Marina (Megadock) and were very pleased with it. I would not go in to the Maritime Center on the Cooper River or the City Marina on the Ashley side at other than slack tide if I didn’t have to. The current can be quite swift in either. Lots of folks love the Maritime Center for its proximity to the Harris Teeter, the hardware store, and the dog park. It is also a shorter walk to the main part of town. We like the City Marina much better for a variety of reasons – the docks and the bath facilities, the friendly and helpful staff, the van which takes people downtown every hour on the hour and to West Marine (and an adjacent Harris Teeter) every day at 11:30 AM. The pumpout boat come to your boat pretty much on demand for $5. The dockage prices aren’t > that much higher than the Maritime Center, but the fuel prices aren’t cheap by any means. If you make a reservation ask to be on M dock near the bath house if possible. This shortens the walk to the parking lot. If you get at the end of the Megadock your shoes will get lots of wear during your stay. Good luck! PS- If at all possible, time docking at Charleston Marine Center on or near slack. The current can make things exciting. Ask the guys there when it [slack tide] is when you call them for a slip, they’ll help you out. Jim Laudermilch 48 Hatteras motoryacht “Snail’s Pace”
Have stayed at the Maritime Center marina 3 times, most recently June, 2012. It is my preferred marina in Charleston for the berthing rate and the great location for both groceries (H-T) and restaurants (many). The freighter and Navy traffic in the Cooper River can send a surge into the marina, but power boat wakes on the Ashley River can do the same for the marinas on that side of town. The marina has recently upgraded the free laundromat to two machine sets, so it is possible to get a complete laundry done in a reasonable amount of time. For me the only drawback to the marina is the limited number of slips, especially those for boats over 40′. The last two time I was at the marina I had to tie my 42′ sailboat to a 30′ floating dock. That’s not really a problem for me with a mid-ships lifeline gate. Boats with the gate further aft will want to back into one of these slips. If you are not comfortable tying to a 30′ dock, then make a reservation on one of the 40′ docks. My recommendation is to stay at the Maritime Center if you are going to spend some time in Charleston. If you are just stopping for a night on a forced march up or down the ICW, then by all means use the Ashley River marinas as they are much more convenient. John
Earlier reports have indicated depths of 5.8 feet at dead low in this perennial “AICW Problem Stretch” south of Charleston, SC.
Abeam of “186” at 1137 and followed the magenta line around to abeam “185”, entrance to the Ashepoo-Coosaw cutoff, and depth dropped to as low as 8.1′, then bounced between 8.1′ to 8.5′ abeam of “184”. Low tide prediction: 1339, +0.14′-probably have at least 6′, + or -, at LT. Dredging would help. Michael J. Horowitz aboard ALTAIR
Captain Bob, friend and author of the note below (copied from the AGLCA Forum), is one of the most knowledgeable people I know when it comes to the “Holy City” of Charleston and its intricate waters. Thanks Captain Bob for a snapshot of Charleston Maritime Center.
Charleston Maritime Center Downtown. Biggest thing it has going for it is the local super market. Pretty reasonable, Small not many slips. Wide open to tourist and the local tour boats operate out of there as well. If you stay six months put out every fender you have because it can get really rocky rolley in there with wakes coming into that small basin from the harbor and a wind from the wrong direction sends waves rolling in bouncing off the walls inside. Capt Bob M/Y ALLEZ! MT50 WB
Well, of course Captain Phil was impressed. After all, these good people are a SALTY SOUTHEAST CRUISERS’ NET SPONSOR!
My wife and I were recently visiting in Charleston and came across the Charleston Harbor Marina and Resort. http://www.charlestonharbormarina.com/ I was impressed with the manager Kelly Poe ( 843-284-7065) and his efforts to welcome new boaters. They are considering offering an AGLC discount and being sponsors. Although the marina is across the bridge from Charleston they offer shuttle rides every 30 minutes or so to and from Charleston. I plan on staying there this fall. Phil
Captain Bob isn’t kidding below when he says that Cooper River Marina is “remote.” In fact, it’s located in what was a backwater section of the old Charleston US Navy Base, and it’s quite a drive to get pretty much anywhere from its docks. Still, the rates are reasonable, and if you have readily available shoreside, auto transportation, this facility is a possibility in the greater Charleston area!
The Cooper River Marina is run by Charleston, County bit more reasonable but remote in a North Charleston Industrial area. Need a car and I d believe they are still unloading concrete ships up there and lots of nice concrete dust to wash off your boat from time to time. Capt Bob Onboard ALLEZ! MT50
We stayed at Cooper River for a month in November and would go back again. Didn’t see any dust from loading ships. Staff there was most accommodating and offered us rides if we needed, including all the way to the airport. Like the fact that it’s next to a Navy base. Felt very secure leaving the boat there. Also, nice docks and good facilities. Dennis Jay
Bridge opening schedules can be confusing even with the best wording and with the frequent changes that seem always to occur during the busiest seasons; Chris experienced two of such changes. We have confirmed and listed below the most up-to-date schedules of openings for three of the busiest bridges in SC.
We are very late this year in our trip south. One thing we have encountered is “on signal” bridges which are no longer such. Socastee and Ben Sawyer have new restrictions. Socastee was on the half hour and BS was on the hour on a non-holiday Friday. Chris aboard Brilliant Star
Socastee Swing Bridge Opens on Demand with closures required every 15 minutes when vessel traffic is heavy.
Ben Sawyer Bridge: Opens on request Monday through Friday 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. Does not open at all Monday through Friday from 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. and from 4:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. On Saturdays, Sundays, and legal holidays, the span opens on the hour from 9:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. Opens on demand after 6:00 p.m. Monday through Friday and after 7:00 p.m. Saturdays, Sundays and legal holidays.
Wappoo Creek Hwy 171 Bridge: From April 1 to November 30, from 9:00 am to 4:00 pm (last opening at 3:30), and on Saturdays and Sundays, 9:00 am to 7:00 pm, the bridge opens on the hour and half-hour. From December 1 to March 30, from 9:00 am to 4:00 pm, the bridge opens on demand (last opening 3:50). From April 1 to May 31, and from October 1 to November 30, Monday through Friday, the bridge does not open at all between the hours of 6:00 am to 9:00am, and from 4:00 pm to 6:30 pm. From June 1 to September 30, and from December 1 to March 30, the bridge does not open at all between the hours of 6:30 am to 9:00 am, and from 4:00 pm to 6:30 pm.
Dolphin Cove Marina overlooks the Ashley River’s eastern shores north of unlighted daybeacon #16, northwest of the charted “R TR”.
Reggie: I hauled my sailboat our summer before last. My Marina is Ashley in Charleston Harbor. Took the boat up the Ashley River to Dolphin Cove marina for the haul out. they have a big lift and very reasonable rates. very nice and easy to deal with. their cheap rates are reflected in the deferred maintenance of the facilities but the nicer places are more expensive. Skip Hardin
Palmetto Moon with Jim, Su and Lazy Cat Alex have just traveled from Georgetown, SC To Brunswick, Ga. Palmetto Moon cruises at 8.5 MPH and draws 4.5 ft. Here are the issues and observations of their travels:
2-Isle of Palms (MM-456.9) to Port Royal Landing (MM-539.5) We left 2.5 hours before low tide. In the White Point area (MM-495-500) at low tide Between R-110 and G-121 center of channel; At G-111 – G-113 we saw 4 feet under us At G-115 – G-117 we saw 3.5 feet under us Running at just above Idle Speed stirred up a lot of mud/sand through most of the area from G-111 G-119 This info is what we experienced in our travels. As always you are the captain of your vessel and should use this as info only. Safe travels. Palmetto Moon
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